My aunt is Queen Ma

Chapter 87 Untitled (5000 words, please vote with monthly tickets)
"As we said before, people are the foundation of everything, and public power and civil rights go hand in hand."

"When all people come together, they form public power, and public power, in turn, protects the people and safeguards their rights."

"The basic requirements of the people for the public are safety and basic necessities such as food, clothing and daily necessities."

"From a monarch's perspective, there are two things that must be done."

"Firstly, we must uphold the authority of public power; secondly, we must find ways to meet the reasonable needs of the people."

"Let's start with the first point: upholding public authority."

Zhu Yuanzhang's gaze became more focused, and finally the topic of upholding imperial power came up, which he naturally enjoyed listening to.

Ma Yu didn't mention relying on the military or anything like that; instead, she reviewed what she had said earlier:

"Based on the trajectory of the expansion of public power, we can draw a conclusion."

"The best way to safeguard public power is to minimize the number of intermediaries and achieve direct communication between the public and the people."

"But this is unrealistic. Given the current level of productivity, public power cannot directly connect with the people."

"Small countries with few people can barely manage to bring the rule of man to its extreme."

"For a country as vast as the Ming Dynasty, effective governance can only be achieved through a system."

"Therefore, we must reflect the importance of civil rights in our systems."

"Just like in the Song Dynasty, they were willing to dismiss the prime minister for the sake of a lowly servant."

"The reason why the Zhao Song imperial family did this was very simple: to protect civil rights."

“And upholding civil rights is weakening the power of the bureaucracy.”

"When the power of bureaucrats weakens, public power naturally becomes stronger."

"..."

"Therefore, for countries with vast territories, the system of rites and laws is especially important."

“Once the laws and etiquette are broken, the country begins to decline.”

Zhu Biao nodded repeatedly, gaining a deeper understanding of public power and civil rights through this explanation.

Although Zhu Yuanzhang's expression remained calm, he was deeply moved.

Zhu Gang also showed a thoughtful expression, realizing that this was the meaning of emphasizing etiquette and law.

Everyone was even more eager to see if Ma Yu would delve deeper into this topic.

But he only mentioned it briefly before changing the subject to something else:

"Many people have studied the construction of etiquette and law, and there are countless works on it, so I won't go into detail."

"Next, I'll talk about a direction that predecessors clearly valued but which has been consistently overlooked."

Zhu Yuanzhang's expression shifted, and he wished he could jump up and give Ma Yu a good beating.

That's what we want to hear you talk about right now.

Zhu Biao shared the same idea. Countless people have indeed talked about the construction of etiquette and law, but very few have been as straightforward and clear as Ma Yu.

He really wanted to keep listening.

But Ma Yu didn't give them a chance to speak at all, and immediately continued:
"If the system of rites and laws represents the construction of spiritual civilization, then what I am about to talk about is the construction of material civilization."

"That is the same question His Majesty just asked: why expand the functions of the government offices?"

Spiritual civilization construction? Material civilization construction?
Upon hearing these two words, everyone's attention was instantly diverted.

"What is the construction of material civilization? For example, ensuring that people have enough to eat and wear is the most basic construction of material civilization."

"Material things are the foundation of everything; without material satisfaction, everything else is meaningless."

Zhu Biao interjected, saying, "When the granaries are full, people know etiquette; when they are well-fed and clothed, they know honor and shame."

"Only when people are well-fed and clothed can they have the means to pursue spiritual and cultural enrichment, right?"

Ma Yu praised, "That's exactly the point. The ancients actually made that clear long ago."

"It's just that many people have become obsessed with etiquette and law, and actually think that starving to death is a small matter but losing one's integrity is a big matter. This is really putting the cart before the horse."

"If the monarch actually believed this statement, it would be disastrous."

Zhu Yuanzhang frowned slightly; he agreed with Cheng Yi's viewpoint.

Having listened to so many of Ma Yu's lectures, his understanding had begun to waver, so he did not refute her on the spot.

But I'm definitely not happy about it.

Zhu Biao didn't hold such a rigid view and strongly agreed with Ma Yu's words:
“Cheng Yi’s words indeed disregard reality, which shows the shortcomings of Neo-Confucianism.”

"If this were used to govern the country, it would likely lead to the absurd situation where people would use etiquette and law to avoid hunger."

Zhu Di scratched his head and said in a low voice, "If I'm starving, I'm capable of anything."

Zhu Yuanzhang was already in a bad mood, and upon hearing this, he immediately became furious:

"What? You want to eat our flesh and your mother's flesh to fill your stomach?"

Zhu Di was startled and quickly said, "No, no... I wouldn't dare..."

Empress Ma, who had remained silent until now, was displeased and protectively retorted:
"Why are you taking your anger out on the children? If we really have no food, I'll cut off some of my own flesh to feed them."

She then retorted, "How could an emperor allow his people to exchange children for food? He deserves to be overthrown."

"It is not wrong to attach importance to etiquette and law, but we must also consider the actual situation."

“The Cheng family has been prominent for generations, and he has been living a life of luxury since childhood.”

"Only those who have eaten their fill and do not know the suffering of hunger can say things like 'starving to death is a small matter, but losing one's integrity is a great matter.'"

"If you really let his whole family live a life of poverty and hunger for a while, I don't believe he would still say such a thing."

"If he really could just stand by and watch his parents, wife, and children starve to death, I'd be the first to spit in his face."

This last sentence was originally used by Zhu Yuanzhang to describe Ma Yu, but now she is using it to evaluate Cheng Yi.

Zhu Yuanzhang was so speechless after being rebuked that he could only snort coldly and turn his head away.

"We won't stoop to your level."

Empress Ma rolled her eyes at him and said to Ma Yu, "Yu'er, continue speaking. Don't pay attention to this old-fashioned man."

Ma Yu suppressed a laugh, coughed lightly, and said, "Expanding the scope of the government's responsibilities is actually for the purpose of building material civilization."

"In fact, every dynasty has been engaged in the construction of material civilization."

“There were systematic constructions organized by the imperial court, as well as constructions undertaken by local government offices on their own initiative.”

“The most common construction project in local areas is irrigation canals, and each canal can be transformed into thousands or tens of thousands of acres of fertile land.”

"It can be said to have brought great benefits to the local area."

"The most typical examples of systematic construction are the imperial highways and the Grand Canal."

Many of the imperial roads built during the Qin Dynasty are still in use today.

"The post roads in the Tang Dynasty reached a distance of more than 50,000 li. At its peak, there were more than 20,000 officials working around the post roads."

"Without a systematic national development plan, such a grand occasion would not have been possible."

"For the imperial court, the imperial roads and the Grand Canal connected all regions of the country, strengthening the central government's control over the local areas."

"Moreover, the transportation of taxes, the transfer of troops, and so on have become more time-saving and labor-saving."

"For ordinary people, the imperial roads and canals facilitated their travel and promoted the development of commerce."

"As commerce develops, the goods produced by artisans and ordinary people can be sold at better prices."

"When people have money in their hands, they can buy some goods, improve their lives, and enhance their quality of life."

"The imperial court can also collect taxes from commercial activities."

"This creates a virtuous cycle."

Zhu Yuanzhang retorted, "Wealth has its own limit. If there is more here, there will be less there. If more falls into the hands of merchants, there will be less in the hands of the court and the people."

"Merchants are greedy and forget morality; how can we allow them to control too much wealth?"

Ma Yu shook her head as she listened: "Who said wealth is predetermined?"

“I know why they say such things, to nail the people to the land and not allow them to do anything else, and for all production to come from the land.”

"The amount of land is limited, so wealth is also limited."

"I can only say that this logic is stupid and presumptuous."

Zhu Yuanzhang's face darkened: "Speak properly. If you keep harassing people for no reason, I'll beat you up."

Ma Yu said sullenly, "You need to take it personally..."

Halfway through his speech, noticing that Zhu Yuanzhang was showing signs of losing his temper, he quickly coughed and said:

"Well, let's get down to business."

Where does wealth come from? It is created by people.

"A tree is just a tree; it's not worth much even if you sell it."

"But after being processed by craftsmen and transformed into various exquisite pieces of furniture, their value can increase many times over."

"Has the total amount of timber increased? No, it's still the same amount of timber, but the wealth has increased."

Zhu Yuanzhang retorted, "But you yourself said that the total amount of wood has not increased; it's actually still the same amount."

"You process grain into cakes, but the total amount remains the same."

Ma Yu paused for a moment, then explained, "Where does the wood come from? It can be obtained by people planting trees."

Zhu Yuanzhang immediately said, "Planting trees also requires land, and land is limited."

Ma Yu felt a rush of heat to his head, and his temples throbbed. How did this beggar become emperor?
At that moment, he deeply understood the meaning of that sentence he saw online:

If you argue with someone about whether rockets burn coal, you've already lost. But the problem now is that you also have to find a way to convince them.

That's utter bullshit.

Taking a deep breath to suppress the urge to curse, and just as he was thinking about how to explain it to him, he noticed that Zhu Yuanzhang's lips twitched several times.

Suddenly it dawned on him that he had been tricked by this stinking beggar.

He immediately retorted angrily, "Are you going to listen to me or not? If not, I'm leaving."

Zhu Yuanzhang dropped the pretense and laughed triumphantly:

"Haha... You're out of words, aren't you? All you can do is read from the book. You'll be dumbfounded when you run into someone who can argue."

Ma Yu rolled her eyes. Did I have nothing to say?
I was speechless because of you, okay?

Empress Ma, thinking he was in an awkward position, quickly smoothed things over, saying:

"You shameless old man, what are you doing making fun of children?"

“Yu’er, don’t listen to his nonsense. Wealth is created by people. What you said is simple and easy to understand, and I agree with it.”

"Keep talking, don't pay attention to him."

Zhu Yuanzhang wasn't angry this time; he just chuckled smugly.

Zhu Biao, Zhu Gang, and Zhu Di rarely saw their father like this, and they were extremely surprised.

Ma Yu took a deep breath, constantly reminding herself not to argue with him.

He's just a stinking beggar; don't bother arguing with him.

After a long while, he suppressed his anger, glared fiercely at Zhu Yuanzhang, and said:

"Don't worry, Auntie, I'm fine. I won't stoop to the level of that shameless old man."

Zhu Yuanzhang: ...

Empress Ma laughed loudly, "Alright, alright, let's be magnanimous and not stoop to his level. Let's continue our conversation."

Ma Yu nodded and continued, "People can turn many worthless things into wealth that society needs."

"But in order to reduce management costs, the imperial court often kept people tied to the land."

"By locking down people's initiative, it does seem to reduce management costs."

"But correspondingly, a large amount of labor is wasted ineffectively, which also makes the economic model simple and fragile."

"The people are impoverished and cannot withstand any storms. A natural disaster can lead to countless people exchanging their own children to eat each other."

Zhu Biao said thoughtfully, "The grassland economy is very simple, with only nomadic herding as its only path."

"If a blizzard freezes many cattle and sheep to death, then people will not be able to survive."

Ma Yu said, "Yes, the principle is the same."

"The economic model of agricultural groups is more diversified than that of grassland groups, and their ability to resist risks is stronger."

"Since we know this, why don't we proactively pursue diversified economic development?"

"To give a simple example, with economic diversification, people have acquired a lot of furniture in their homes."

"Their living standards have improved dramatically."

"If we encounter insurmountable difficulties in the future, even if we have to sell our possessions, we can still get a few more coins, right?"

"Perhaps these few coins can save their lives."

"If every household did this, how much would the total wealth of the entire country increase?"

"When a country faces a disaster, its resilience will increase exponentially."

"To put it bluntly, if a family is wealthy, even if their descendants squander the money, they can squander it for a few more years."

Everyone smiled inwardly and nodded in agreement.

Ma Yu paused for a moment, then continued:
"Of course, our predecessors also had their own difficulties."

"With such low productivity, it is unrealistic to force a diversified development."

"But as we mentioned earlier, the situation changed starting from the Song Dynasty."

"Productivity has increased to a relatively high level, and a large number of people have become wealthy, which provides the conditions for the development of all industries."

"The Song Dynasty was already exploring this path, liberating people from the land."

"By channeling surplus labor into various industries, the Southern Song Dynasty was able to support more than 80 million people with very little land."

“A careful study of the Song Dynasty’s finances and taxes reveals that land tax and poll tax accounted for a very small proportion.”

"Their main source of revenue is actually all kinds of industries."

"This shows that the path of diversified development is feasible."

"Let's assume that if there had been no Mongol invasion, could the Song Dynasty have lasted another one or two hundred years?"

Upon hearing this, Zhu Yuanzhang was greatly moved.

The Song Dynasty was characterized by limited land and a large population, facing both a cold period and the threat of invasion from powerful enemies in the north.

Even so, it still supports more than 80 million people.

The key point is that they can also ensure that these people have food to eat.

If there had been no external enemies, the Song Dynasty might have been able to continue for another one or two hundred years through its own development.

If we calculate it this way, the Song Dynasty's reign could last for more than five hundred years.

Five hundred years.

The Ming Dynasty is also about to face a cold period, and there will be a large surplus of population.

But the Ming Dynasty didn't have such powerful external enemies.

If we calculate it this way, it's unimaginable how long the Ming Dynasty would last.

As he calculated, his eyes practically lit up with greed, and he urged, "..."

"Tell me quickly, what's next?"

Zhu Biao and the others also perked up their ears. Who wouldn't be excited about adding several hundred years to the dynasty's lifespan?

Ma Yu was also very happy. It's good that you're interested. Interest is the best source of motivation.

"But the Song Dynasty was only in the exploratory stage; they didn't know exactly how to do it."

"Or rather, their approach was very inefficient, leading to a huge waste of resources."

"If the Song Dynasty had a clear understanding of this and the court had formulated a macro-development plan, I believe their situation would have been better."

"But even the best policies need to be implemented by local officials."

"We can't expect a group of people who can't count to run the economy..."

"This is why I have always said that the Ming Dynasty should expand the scope of the functions of its officials and promote the popularization of mathematics."

"Everything is for the purpose of diversifying the economy of the Ming Dynasty and accumulating more wealth for future generations."

"Strive to help the Ming Dynasty survive the cold period and create a more glorious and longer-lasting dynasty."

"So that when future generations seek experience in governing a country, they will no longer mention the rule of the Three Dynasties, but will only take the Ming Dynasty as an example."

His words were so inspiring that even Zhu Yuanzhang felt his blood boil.

Not to mention the three brothers Zhu Biao, Zhu Gang, and Zhu Di; if the circumstances hadn't been unfavorable, they would have stood up and proclaimed their ambition to create a glorious future.

After everyone calmed down, Zhu Yuanzhang said:

“We knew you had a whole set of ideas about governing the country, and you didn’t disappoint us today.”

Although no specific policies were mentioned, this lesson was more effective than any specific policy.

This gave him a clearer understanding of the past and a more definite idea of ​​future development.

Looking back at the national policies he had previously designed, he felt it was better not to bring them out and to redesign them.

Of course, he wouldn't be so hasty; he would still conduct a lot of investigations afterward.

But at least now we know which direction to investigate.

This is much better than being like a headless fly before.

Afterwards, the group raised questions about this issue, which Ma Yu answered one by one, giving them a deeper understanding of economic diversification.

Ma Yu also took the opportunity to talk about the issue of commercial tax and emphasized its importance in the future.

In fact, even without his reminder, Zhu Yuanzhang had already realized that he had not paid enough attention to commercial taxes when discussing economic diversification.

Regarding the tax system, this aspect must be addressed.

However, Ma Yu also said she didn't know the specifics of how to levy commercial taxes.

"But I believe there must be someone who knows. Your Majesty, if you investigate further, you will surely find it."

Zhu Yuanzhang nodded, not thinking that he was hiding his true abilities.

It would be problematic if Ma Yu knew everything.

We chatted for a while longer, and then it was lunchtime.

After the meal, Ma Yu took his leave.

The conversation had largely concluded, so Zhu Yuanzhang didn't try to keep him any longer.

But when the three Zhu brothers wanted to leave, Zhu Yuanzhang kept them behind and said:

"Aren't you wondering why I kept the third and fourth brothers behind to listen to the lecture?"

(End of this chapter)