Bringing the Railway to Daming

Chapter 26: General Talk, Insightful Insights [Seeking Follow-up Reading]

Liu Kuan's remarks about the late Ming Dynasty were actually the casual talk of an amateur Ming history enthusiast, so it took Zhu Yuanzhang a while to digest them before he could sort out the context of some of the things in them.

Coming back to his senses, he first asked, "You said that the gentry and landlords took advantage of the loopholes left by me and the subsequent emperors of the early Ming Dynasty to evade taxes. What exactly do you mean?"

Liu Kuan said, "Even if Your Majesty doesn't ask, I would tell you about this matter, but I hope that what I said today in Fengxian Palace will not be leaked."

Zhu Yuanzhang said, "Don't worry, Li Gui and Zhao Cheng are both very secretive people. Without our permission, they will never reveal a single word."

Zhao Cheng and Liu Kuan knew each other, so Li Gui was naturally referring to the old eunuch next to the emperor.

They all look like reliable people.

Liu Kuan then said, "Since the Tang and Song dynasties, there have always been preferential policies for exempting officials and scholars who passed the imperial examinations from taxes and labor service."

"After the Ming Dynasty was established, it not only inherited this type of policy, but even later 'developed it further'."

Liu Kuan deliberately emphasized the word "develop and carry forward" so that Lao Zhu could understand the derogatory meaning of his words.

However, as soon as Liu Kuan finished speaking, Zhu Yuanzhang couldn't help but interrupt him.

"Wait a minute. You said that our Ming Dynasty inherited the policy of exempting officials and scholars from taxes and labor service. This is obviously not true!"

Obviously wrong?

What's wrong?
Liu Kuan was a little confused for a moment.

Seeing this, Zhu Biao helped Zhu Yuanzhang explain: "Master Liu, since the founding of the Ming Dynasty, we have indeed given some preferential treatment to officials - this is a must in all dynasties."

"But up to now, my father has only exempted incumbent and retired officials from corvee labor. Then, in the ninth year of the Hongwu reign, knowing that it was difficult for officials to reside in the capital, he exempted officials serving in the capital and their two generations of relatives from the head tax."

"Compared to the preferential treatment given to officials during the Zhao and Song dynasties and the Hu Yuan dynasty, this kind of treatment is far less than what was shown to officials. Many officials even secretly criticize our father for being harsh."

"As for preferential treatment for scholars who passed the imperial examinations—since the third year of the Hongwu reign, my father has not held any imperial examinations. How can we talk about preferential treatment for those who passed the examinations?"

After hearing what Zhu Biao said, Liu Kuan understood.

One possibility is that he did not have a clear understanding of the tax exemption system in the early Ming Dynasty and had some misunderstandings; the other possibility is that the later Ming emperors made many changes to the exemption policy.

He said, "Perhaps I have misunderstood the preferential treatment policy of the early Ming Dynasty, but it is also possible that Your Majesty or a later Ming emperor changed this policy."

"If nothing else, history records that in the 15th year of the Hongwu reign, Your Majesty reopened the imperial examination system, which continued until the end of the Ming Dynasty."

"For scholars and juren who passed the imperial examination, not only were they provided with rice, but they were even exempted from some taxes and labor service - of course, it could just be that they were exempted from corvee labor."

"Thus, a phenomenon emerged in the Ming Dynasty where ordinary people would fraudulently transfer their land to the names of those with special privileges in order to evade taxes and labor service."

"Of course, those who possess such privileges are not limited to the gentry, but also include nobles and princes."

"These three categories of privileged people will continue to grow as the Ming Dynasty continues. In other words, the number of people who have the right to be exempt from taxes and labor service will increase."

"Furthermore, these three groups are the main force in annexing land. As a result, the amount of money and grain the Ming court can collect from taxes and labor service will decrease as these three groups grow stronger."

"As the imperial court's spending on grain dwindled, its control over the localities naturally weakened. Consequently, local gentry and powerful individuals eventually resisted paying taxes."

At this point, Liu Kuan took a deep breath and said, "I wonder if Your Majesty is satisfied with my explanation."

Zhu Yuanzhang snorted, "Even if it's as you say, it was the descendants of the fourth son who arbitrarily changed the preferential treatment policy. What does it have to do with us?"

Then he continued, "We knew that we couldn't be too nice to those officials and scholars, otherwise they would just cheat the poor people. Now it seems that we were right!"

Liu Kuan thought: "Then why don't you talk about the nobles and the princes? Especially the princes."

However, the Ming Dynasty's policy of treating vassal kings like pigs was mostly implemented by Zhu Di, so Zhu Yuanzhang cannot be blamed.

As for the nobles...it seemed that Zhu Yuanzhang was overly pampered to the founding nobles, and then killed a large number of them out of disappointment and to eliminate hidden dangers for Zhu Yunwen?

Liu Kuan didn't quite understand this.

Considering the misunderstanding that occurred when discussing the tax and labor exemption policy just now, Liu Kuan decided not to talk about the princes and nobles for the time being to avoid making another mistake.

Besides, if I keep talking like this, when will I be able to finish?
He originally wanted to divide the Ministry of Revenue, right?
The topic has been moved eight hundred miles away.

Zhu Yuanzhang seemed to realize that a considerable part of the remarks made by later generations as Liu Kuan mentioned were unreliable, so he decided not to continue questioning the issue of "the Ming Dynasty died of poverty."

He said, "Alright, we'll discuss the preferential treatment for the gentry, nobles, and princes later. You should talk about how the Ministry of Revenue should be divided."

Liu Kuan was just about to get back to the topic, but when he heard this he said directly: "Perhaps we can set up a Ministry of Finance to be in charge of taxes and grain." After hearing this, Zhu Yuanzhang was still stroking his chin and thinking.

Zhu Biao frowned and said, "Taxes are derived from population and land, and grain and levies are derived from taxes. If the tax and grain and levy-related functions are separated from the Ministry of Revenue, I'm afraid it will make tax collection even more difficult, right?"

Liu Kuan said, "When I said I was in charge of taxes and grain, it was actually to make it easier for Your Majesty and Your Highness to understand."

"If we follow the system of later generations, we should even separate the tax collection duties and establish a dedicated taxation department."

"The Ministry of Finance is called this because it regards sorting out the country's finances as a very important and professional matter."

"Only by paying attention to finance can we quickly identify and resolve the country's financial problems. Later generations believed that the Ming Dynasty perished in poverty because of insufficiently detailed fiscal and taxation management."

Having said that, Liu Kuan stopped talking for a moment because he was unable to organize his words.

Zhu Biao, still frowning, said, "Master Liu, you still don't understand. In the Ming Dynasty, taxes, population, and land are closely tied together. They are not so easily separated."

"Even if we take your financial concerns seriously, the relevant responsibilities cannot be divided just like that."

Liu Kuan also frowned.

He never expected that Zhu Biao would become an obstacle to his suggestion to Zhu Yuanzhang to divide the Ministry of Revenue.

The division of the Ministry of Households was just the beginning of his suggestions, and he had many more ideas that he had not yet expressed.

However, he did have relatively little knowledge of the Ming Dynasty, especially its system and national conditions in the early Ming Dynasty.

Some of the comments on the Internet in later generations were just said casually, and they were quite taken for granted...
As Liu Kuan was reflecting on himself, Zhu Yuanzhang said, "Young Master Liu just said that the court should pay attention to finances to prevent the situation of poverty and death. That's quite right."

"But from what you just said about the division of the Ministry of Revenue, firstly, it's not very practical, and secondly, it's a bit general and there's no coherence in your words."

"I think what we're discussing today is too sudden. Why don't we just leave it for now? Go back and think about it for a few days, write a memorial, and then we can discuss it again. How about that?"

After hearing what Zhu Yuanzhang said, Liu Kuan realized that it was not the right thing to just say whatever came to mind when chatting with people on the Internet in the future.

Moreover, his ideas about dividing the six ministries did not have a clear outline, and he did not understand the actual situation in the early Ming Dynasty. Naturally, he could not convince Zhu Biao, Zhu Yuanzhang, or even himself.

State affairs are not a joke; they must be considered and acted upon with care.

Thinking of this, Liu Kuan bowed and said, "Your Majesty is right. My remarks just now were indeed a bit general."

"I will carefully consider this matter after I leave, and try to come up with one or two suggestions that will be of practical help in the reform of the six ministries of the Ming Dynasty."

After a pause, Liu Kuan smiled sheepishly again, "Your Majesty and Your Highness have also seen that I really don't have much experience in handling state affairs. I just know some opinions from later generations that may not be correct."

"Whether it's establishing a cabinet, a Grand Council, or dividing the six ministries, the suggestions I've made are only for your Majesty's reference. Whether or not to adopt them is up to your Majesty to consider."

"So, rather than discussing state affairs with Your Majesty and Your Highness, I would rather join the Science and Technology Department as soon as possible and start working on the train project."

Zhu Yuanzhang thought Liu Kuan was being humiliated by this and said, "Young Master Liu, there's no need to belittle yourself. The systems, historical events, and experiences of later generations you mentioned, even if they're just for our reference, will be of great benefit to our governance of the Ming Dynasty."

Liu Kuan didn't say anything else and prepared to leave.

Zhu Yuanzhang continued, "We're all set here, but the Queen wants to talk to you. She's in the Rouyi Palace to the west. Zhao Cheng, take Young Master Liu there."

"I obey your command." Zhao Cheng replied.

Seeing this, Liu Kuan bowed again and said, "I will take my leave."

He used to be a person who didn't even like to pay attention to some modern etiquette, but when he arrived in the Ming Dynasty and became an employee of Boss Zhu, he had to adapt to the local customs and began to pay attention to certain etiquette.

Boss Zhu gave him the right to be exempted from kneeling in most situations - but if he relied on his special background and a little privilege to become arrogant and even showed contempt for the imperial power, wouldn't he be like Xu You in the Three Kingdoms, seeking his own death?

Zhu Yuanzhang watched Liu Kuan disappear outside the palace gate before he spoke: "Biao'er, what do you think of Liu Kuan's remarks about our Ming Dynasty?"

Although Zhu Biao had just questioned Liu Kuan's suggestion to separate the Ministry of Finance from the Ministry of Revenue, he now spoke well of Liu Kuan.

He said, "Although Mr. Liu's remarks are somewhat general, whether it is pointing out that the Ming Dynasty did not attach enough importance to finance, which ultimately led to its demise due to poverty, or separating the Ministry of Finance from the Ministry of Revenue to better manage fiscal and taxation affairs, both are insightful."

"If he can later propose specific suggestions for dividing the Ministry of Revenue's functions, and Father can then implement financial reforms, we can eliminate a major hidden danger for the Ming Dynasty."

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(End of this chapter)